If cost is a measure of how willing people are to get into alternative fuel vehicles, such as fuel cell vehicles, won’t expensive hydrogen fuel effectively cancel out any environmental benefits?
We’ve already discussed how much it costs to power a fuel cell vehicle, and it’s actually cheaper than battery electric vehicles. Battery electric vehicles also have the benefit of being really cheap to recharge, just 12 ¢/kWh average across the United States. Comparing gasoline to hydrogen fuel, for those who aren’t interested in battery electric vehicles, seems like a pretty easy conversion, but isn’t hydrogen fuel more expensive?
First, taking a look at the energy in a 2.83 kg of gasoline (one gallon) and a kilogram of hydrogen fuel, we find they’re about the same, 39,400 Wh/kg H2, and about 36,500 Wh/kg gasoline, yet a kilogram of hydrogen fuel, generated via wind power, costs at least 40% more than today’s average gallon of gasoline. “Well, there you have it! Refueling a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is more expensive!”
True, hydrogen fuel and gasoline have about the same amount of energy per unit, but how efficient are fuel cell vehicles compared to conventional, or even hybrid, vehicles? Using the Toyota Prius Hybrid as an example, the inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine, even combined with the advanced hybrid electric powertrain, still only manages 50 mpg, about 7 ¢/mi. The Hyundai ix35 fuel cell vehicle, on the other hand, recently tested as high as 80 MPGe, which rounds out to just 6.3 ¢/mi.
Considering that wind-power-generated hydrogen fuel isn’t even the cheapest method, it’s quite impressive that renewable hydrogen fuel ends up being cheaper than even gasoline. Add in the fact that zero emissions are generated, and health care and pollution-remediation costs disappear altogether.
Image © Olathe Toyota Parts Center
Granted you have dated information, but this is straight up wrong. Hydrogen currently costs $13.99/kg. Considering that the Mirai can hold ~5 kg and has an EPA rated 312 miles/tank, this works out to about $0.25/mile. The only place that has gas prices this expensive is in Britain at around $6.33/gallon. Electrics cost between $0.04/ mile and $0.06/mile.
trique024 Bob Wallace
That video is over an hour long.
Right now Tesla is stating 170 miles in 30 minutes. That’s 64% in 30 minutes.
Did I claim 80% in 20 minutes for the Tesla or 80% of a generic 200 mile range EV in 20 minutes? If I specifically said “Tesla”, I apologize.
The Tesla/Panasonic batteries are not the only team in the game. The Toshiba SCiB used in the Honda FIT
“Charged with the highest current available with CHAdeMO*1, widely seen as the emerging standard for fast charging EV, an SCiB™ reaches about 80 percent of full capacity in some 15 minutes, about 50% in 10 minutes and about 25% in 5 minutes – half the times of a typical lithium-ion battery charged under the same conditions. The SCiB™ also generates little heat while recharging, eliminating the need for power to cool the battery module.”
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2011_06/pr1603.htm
Mick Segal Bob Wallace LoneWolffe Ladson
Thanks for the best laugh of the afternoon.
Are you grownup enough to recognize the higher cost of operating a FCEV vs. an EV?
—
I fully realize that a couple car companies are likely to start selling FCEVs in a couple of years. Good for them. Then we’ll get some real world experience with how they work and what they cost.
The question is whether then can get their costs significantly below that of EVs. The market isn’t going to pay the same or more for a car that costs more than twice as much to operate.
There’s also a question of whether EV makers can bring an affordable 150-200 mile range EV to market. If they can’t, then FCEVs might win based on longer range.
My guess is that we will have affordable 200 mile range EVs well before we’ll see FCEVs under $50k. If you wish to guess differently, that’s your privilege.
BTW, did you hear that Musk is talking about marketing a 500 mile range EV?
Bob Wallace LoneWolffe Ladson Hey B O B… Do you even READ the responses? It is pretty obvious you have a closed mind to what is happening with respect to hydrogen, fuel cells and FCV’s … Gee Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Linde, Air Products, GE and the rest of the billion dollar companies have no idea about the benefits of fuel cell efficiencies and are wasting their time and money right? Don’t respond because I will delete and move on. Tired of reading your BS! If you think this isn’t going to happen you are dead wrong! It’s already happening and there is nothing you can do about it!! Grow up and try doing a little research before you comment!
Bob Wallace trique024
“Interesting. I have no passion for Tesla or Musk in the sense that I worship/love/whatever them to the extent that I am willing to disregard facts.”
Yet… you keep going around saying you can ‘supercharge’ your Tesla to 80% in ~20 minutes.
But… if you watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYPeequUD4s
you will see, he doesn’t get to 160 miles (80% charge) until 46 minutes through the video. That’s 45 minutes after he plugged that bad boy in…..
Bob Wallace
Eleven years old, Bob. Eleven. Glad to be your peer though. 🙂
trique024 Bob Wallace
You’re what, 12 years old?
trique024 Bob Wallace
Interesting. I have no passion for Tesla or Musk in the sense that I worship/love/whatever them to the extent that I am willing to disregard facts.
I think that FCEVs are a possible route off fossil fuels, but I recognize both their positives and their negatives. And do the same with EVs. I could be wrong, but I think my opinions are driven by facts, not emotion or desire. I don’t believe that you would be able to find a single incident of me talking about ‘fool cell’ or a ‘compliance car’. (Actually it would be foolish to spend many, many millions creating a FCEV for compliance reasons when one could cobble together an EV for a lot less.)
Are you willing to overlook the fact that the Tesla is pretty much the safest car ever made? That’s it a great job of car design, aside from its propulsion system? Those things have nothing to do with EV vs. PHEV, but they are real and I think Elon made a very excellent decision to make not only a long range EV, but a world class automobile.
I don’t have a count on the number of US utilities offering TOU metering, both both PG&E and PG do off TOU and they are large utility companies.
You seem to think that people should not point out that the Emperor is naked when FCEVs are the emperor. If you can’t look at the facts without getting your bloomers in a bunch then you might find it more pleasant to stay out of FCEV/EV discussions. Facts are going to continue to raise their nasty heads and spoil your pudding.
Bob Wallace
This is a perfect example of those conspiracy theories;
” It is a continuation of control of the fuel market by the oil companies…….”
Hahaha I LOVE IT!
Quick, where is Alex. WHY HAS HE NOT JUMPED ALL OVER THIS!? I mean, this is trillion dollar market kind of conspiracy. I bet him and Elon would make great friends. Elon could frequent the show! He could help get the rest of the crazies in the country on board with you guys. That will surely help ‘debunk’ hydrogen if everybody could just know, it’s all a grand plan from the oil companies!
Bob Wallace trique024
My passion for fuel cell vehicles is no more or less passionate than yours for Tesla and Musk. The difference Bob; I am not partial to Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, General Motors, Nissan, or Hyundai. I think they are all wise, and you would have to literally be a hardcore conspiracy theorist to go around trying to make claims such as ‘its just a marketing ploy’ or that ‘they all work for the oil companies’ and ‘it’s just a way to keep the status quo of having filling stations’ .
Pretty much every time you hear somebody talking about a fuel cell vehicle and they start calling it a ‘fool cell’ or a ‘compliance car’, they will almost without fail stray their comments to how the Model S is ‘the safest car ever made’ or that it’s the ‘worlds best car’ and that ‘there is nothing that compares’
Sometimes it takes a few days, but boy, I tell you, any time you find any news for hydrogen, here comes the Valley mob of Muskrats yielding their charging cords, superchargers, and their ‘e-miles’ ready to do everything they can to try and convince people that Hydrogen is ‘dirty’, or that it uses ‘5 times more energy’ than plugging in.
As to TOU metering, not much of that happening in the US. But in Ontario (where they are doing limited testing with it) there’s also other news coming from their grid operators (in an attempt to help balance things out, like you were talking about)
Independent Electricity System Operator Selects Hydrogenics Corporation for Supply of 2 Megawatt Energy Storage Facility in Ontario
Jul 25 14
Hydrogenics Corporation announced that it has been selected as a Preferred Respondent by the Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO) for Ontario in its procurement for Grid Energy Storage. This Power-to-Gas project will deliver 2MW of storage capacity and be located in the Greater Toronto Area. The company will supply the facility’s next-generation PEM electrolyzers and is partnering with Enbridge Inc. to develop, build and operate the energy storage facility to provide regulation services to the IESO under contract.
trique024 Ladson Bob Wallace
And every one of those scientists will tell you that it takes an appreciable amount of energy to separate water into oxygen and hydrogen. And that it takes more energy to compress the hydrogen enough to make it transportable in a vehicle.
No one is arguing that it is not possible to make green hydrogen. The argument is:
1) “Clean energy” hydrogen FCEVs would cost more than 2x as much per mile to operate than EVs.
2) Because clean energy hydrogen is expensive what will happen is that people will run their H2 FCEVs of reformulated methane. Most people will not be willing to pay extra for clean H2 as long as our affordable NG supply lasts. That means unnecessary CO2 emissions.
Ladson Bob Wallace
Lad,
I love your quote, you should read it while considering yourself, not others. It’s not very ‘buddhist’ of you to cast judgement on others, especially in attempt to try and size somebody down.
Here’s where you invite critical thinkers to object to your senseless rants;
“The glaring error in the calculations is the assumption Hydrogen is created by green windmills…that’s a PR image creation. Hydrogen is produced by oil companies reforming fossil fuel and then compressing it to greater than 10,000 psi. It is a continuation of control of the fuel market by the oil companies……..” wind-power-generated hydrogen fuel”…..PR bologna! ”
Meanwhile, at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, (a place much more important than you could ever dream of being) they have a working Hydrogen fueling station that is solely powered off of wind. These very intelligent and accredited scientists are working extraordinarily hard to help create a sustainable, working model, for a clean and renewable fuel source. When people like yourself make such disrespectful comments to their efforts and actual achievements, I would hope the average person who has any sense on the issue would stand up and defend their efforts against your senseless, Musk-rat rhetoric.
Ladson Bob Wallace trique024
EVs are likely to be a huge boon for new wind farms. In the US onshore tends to blow harder at night when demand is lower. High supply and low demand means low prices. In fact, ‘always-on’ generation such as nuclear and coal will bid very low in order to avoid shutting down (they can’t restart quickly). This really cuts profits for wind turbines.
Adding lots of EVs and their need to charge only a few hours per night means a new, responsive market for onshore wind. If charging is done as dispatchable loads then EVs can suck up any surplus power and create a revenue stream that will bring additional profits to wind farms. Which will bring more turbines on line. And provide more cheap wind during the day to help reduce our electricity bills.
Actually I see EVs bringing a lot more wind and solar on line. The dispatchable nature of EVs and their need to charge, on average less than three hours per day, means that they are ideal tools to help grid operators in integrating both wind and solar onto the grid.
About half of all US drivers already have a place to plug in when they park at night. They will be useful for wind integration. Many of the others may find it easiest to plug in during the day at work/school. That would make them available for solar integration.
Bob Wallace trique024 Ladson
Bob
Good Point; still hard to beat charging pure EVs directly off solar arrays for efficiency and independence from fossil fuels.
tri
Your personal remarks add nothing to the information; please don’t try typing yourself important. “There are no important people, just those who thank they are.” Dalai Lama
trique024 Bob Wallace
Boy, you sure have some sort of deep emotional attachment to FCEVs, don’t you?
Your personal problems aside, ever hear of TOU (time of use) metering? Some utility companies already use TOU billing. People pay more during high demand hours and less during low demand hours.
Do you understand load-shifting and its value to grid operators? If so, can you grasp the value of have very large demand controllable by grid operators?
We’re talking the ability to avoid expensive storage and dispatchable generation. Grids will be more than happy to discount the cost of electricity to charge EVs if they can control the “when”. And smart chargers would also provide smart metering so that differential rates can be charged for EV charging and normal building demand even with the same feed.
Mick Segal Bob Wallace
Flaring is a climatic problem. But the reason gas is flared, IIRC, is that the value of the gas lost does not cover the cost of capturing it and moving it to market.
We’d have to stop flaring based on EPA-type pollution regulations and that is not a solution outside US boarders.
trique024 Ladson
Your CF (capacity factor) numbers are out of date, but that’s an aside.
Whatever the CF of wind, FCEVs would mean building over 2x as many as we would need for EVs. If a single 3 MW turbine would power 60-70 FCEVs that same turbine would power around 150 EVs.
Building 2x as much generation means doubling the cost per mile to operate.
LoneWolffe Bob Wallace Ladson
Yes, we certainly should be capturing and using the methane we can’t avoid producing. But there almost certainly isn’t enough to power very many fuel cell vehicles. At best sewage/landfill gas could provide a small portion of what would be needed for the 250,000 cars and light trucks we drive.
Additionally, we probably need that methane for deep grid backup. There are a few hours (literally a few hours) per year which we probably need to use gas turbines due to the cost of storage. And there are industrial needs for methane.
LoneWolffe Bob Wallace Ladson Found it… Here is the “Quad-Gen” link
Publication Date: Monday, March 24, 2014
Publication: The Wall Street Journal
Village Farms International, Inc., In Collaboration with Quadrogen Power Systems, Inc. and Fuel Cell Energy, Inc.Announces the First Ever $7.5 Million Quad-Genergation Energy Project.
http://www.villagefarms.com/AboutVillageFarms/NewsAndPress/Articles/fuelcellproject.aspx
also to note: Found this also about the system…
Metal Producers / Using Fuel Cell Technology … Every silver, brass, steel and copper manufacturer can drop costs dramatically soon… Here’s why: When industrial applications for the trigeneration DFC system that produces electricity, hydrogen and heat from natural gas, Industry is referring to a process known as “annealing” that gets HUGE benefits from trigen. There is a demonstration unit currently installed at AcuPowder (they make copper and are based in NJ) in late 2012 after getting a $2.8 million DOE contract in 2010 to install it.
First off… Annealing is a process used to produce certain metals and alloys. Most prominently silver, brass, steel and copper but there are many others. The reason AcuPowder signed on for the demonstration project is because these plants that use annealing use hydrogen in the process and it is normally shipped in (very costly). They also require an inert reducing gas along with the hydrogen. Normally these plants shipped in nitrogen for this purpose (again, very costly). What they are doing now is they have retrofitted a normal 300 KW DFC fuel cell unit to produce the hydrogen needed along with electricity and heat. FCEL then had the exhaust CO2 from the fuel cell tested to see if it could be used in place of the inert nitrogen gas. Low and behold, AcuPowder say no difference in product quality when using CO2 instead of nitrogen. So they hooked the exhaust up to the furnaces to make a quad generation fuel cell that supplies electricity, heat, hydrogen and CO2 which are all used in this process. AcuPowder found that their facility used 50% less power and cut total utility and purchasing costs by 25%!! To top it off, all of these benefits came from a quiet DFC fuel cell that also makes much cleaner energy and gives reliable power to the facility.
However, there is no such cost barrier to industrial customers who use annealing in their processes. The reason why is because all of these plants already have access to natural gas and the cost and time savings is so astronomical that the cost of the DFC fuel cell far out weighs the benefits as the fuel cell would pay itself back within a short time if overall utility and purchasing costs drop 25% as these are all very large factories which huge electric, heat and purchasing costs.
LoneWolffe Bob Wallace Ladson Found this link recently … When a company like Linde gets involved it usually lends quite a bit of credibility to the scenario. Just thought I would pass this along. I hope to pass along the “Quad-Gen” System if I can find it… That’s when it gets really interesting … Making use of market grad C02!!!
Linde starts production line for fuel cell car “filling stations”http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/14/linde-autos-hydrogen-idINL6N0PP4EK20140714(Reuters) – German industrial gases maker Linde opened what it said was the world’s first production line for hydrogen fuelling stations on Monday, in a bid to boost support networks for eco-friendly cars.Fuel-cell cars, which compete with electric and hybrid vehicles in a race to capture environmentally conscious drivers, use a stack of cells that combine hydrogen with oxygen in the air to generate electricity.Their only emissions are water vapour and heat, but the technology has been held back by high costs and lack of infrastructure. Fuel-cell cars will go on sale starting at $70,000, and filling stations cost over $1 million to build.On the back of commercial launch announcements by Toyota and Hyundai and demand in Japan, Linde started up a production facility with an initial annual capacity of 50 stations a year. Until now, it has built them one by one.The company announced an order for 28 stations from Japanese gas trading company Iwatani, which put the first of its Linde stations into operation near Osaka on Monday, the first commercial hydrogen fuelling station in Japan. “It’s a chicken-and-egg situation,” Linde executive board member Aldo Belloni told Reuters on the sidelines of the opening ceremony in Vienna.Belloni declined to say how much Linde had invested since starting its fuel-cell research and development in 1988, centred in Vienna, but said it was “very much”.Fuel-cell cars can run five times longer than electric cars and fill a tank 10 times as fast.
Bob Wallace
Only electric companies (brokers) get discounts at night from wholesale energy providers. The home-owner pays the exact same amount, whether they are running their meter during the day, or night. This is how the electric companies are actually making money.
On top of that, most people have tiered electricity rates to help influence low usage, to essentially keep an out-dated grid still up and running. Every watt hour you use to charge a BEV is going to be added to your most expensive electricity tier, and potentially bump you into higher ones.
I know here in Texas, the first 500KWhs are cheap, but once you’re pulling over 1500KWhs / month, you’re rate has more than doubled.
Now on the other hand, if a hydrogen generator station gets an upgraded direct connect to nearby transmission, then suddenly the price of electricity will drop to 3-4 cents / KWH for the H2 station, day or night.
Bob, I cant help but ask – Is Elon Musk a good friend of yours? It’s amazing how consistently your are found, pretty much anywhere, talking crap about hydrogen. In my eyes, you are officially anti-science, right there with the people who think the world is only 6,500 years old!
Ladson
You’re definitely NOT the first person to support FCEV’s because they are clean. Many people beat you to that. But thanks for acting so righteous, I’m sure you’ve done the math on how much resources it will require to make 60 million BEV’s a year.
Just a courteous correction to you, many of the fueling stations getting built today are simply electrolyzer and pump pairings. In other words, it just draws electricity off the grid, and then pumps H2 into your car. Supply that however you may, bet let me give you a basic understanding of how much wind it will take to power X number of H2 vehicles.
-Wind power averages 26.9% (in US) over a 24 hour period.
-New wind turbines run at 3MW full capacity, or an average of 807KW at 26.9%
-That’s an average of 19,368 KWhs / day
-Current electrolysis generators us 50-58KWh of electricity per kg/H2 produced.
-To fill a new Toyota FCEV (5.5 kg) it will take about 275-319 KWh
-The single wind generator will successfully fill 60-70 vehicles / day
-The vehicles will get an average of 65-81 Miles / KG, crediting your 100% renewable wind turbine with 3,900-4,860 miles produced each and every day.
LoneWolffe Bob Wallace Mick Segal It’s a “closed” system at these municipal wastewater plants… so the CH4 is controlled – contained. Google: Jack Brouwer Tri-Gen
The man know’s what he is talking about!
Bob Wallace Mick Segal here is some math… keep in mind this is the first system of its kind and uses a small 350kw fuel cell unit… AND Mr. Jack Brouwer has said that he can refine this same system (using MW units with same amount of feed stock now) to increase production by a factor of 10! Impressive…
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-14/sewage-derived-fuel-powers-hyundai-california-green-dream.html
There’s a limit to how much fuel waste-treatment plants can provide, he said. Installing similar hydrogen-making systems at most of California’s major waste-treatment plants would generate enough hydrogen to power about 10 percent of all the cars on the state’s roads, Brouwer said.
“We use an incredible amount of fuel for transportation, and this particular source gets you just part of the way there.”
The rest could be supplied by converting conventional natural gas, until hydrogen sources with even less carbon become available, Castillo said.
“There’s lots of natural gas, so that’s going to take care of most of the fuel,” Castillo said. “It’s also true that we can get some of the hydrogen from waste we all produce every day.”*******************
This is still a lot of cars and lets be honest ICE’s will be around for a very very long time but relieving some pressure on oil / gasoline / electrical grid ect… and sending our kids to some middle eastern desert to secure oil fields is BS! We need to get with the program! ASAP!
AND STOP “FLARING” ENERGY INTO THIN AIR!!!
Bob Wallace Mick Segal We are talking about Fuel Cell VEHICLES! NOT LATE TO THE GAME… Hence “World’s FIRST”… The UCSD unit is made by the same company that provides the Orange County wastewater facility unit. The UCSD unit does not dispense hydrogen to cars. Also the Orange County wastewater unit is a 350kw unit… Wait until they use the 1MW’s way more Hydrogen…
BTW – I believe Gills Onions, Sierra Nevada Brewer were both before UCSD.
http://www.fuelcellenergy.com/applications/renewable-biogas/
Note: Same system “Tri-Gen” / There is also a “Quad-Gen” System!
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-14/sewage-derived-fuel-powers-hyundai-california-green-dream.html
There’s a limit to how much fuel waste-treatment plants can provide, he said. Installing similar hydrogen-making systems at most of California’s major waste-treatment plants would generate enough hydrogen to power about 10 percent of all the cars on the state’s roads, Brouwer said.
“We use an incredible amount of fuel for transportation, and this particular source gets you just part of the way there.”
The rest could be supplied by converting conventional natural gas, until hydrogen sources with even less carbon become available, Castillo said.
“There’s lots of natural gas, so that’s going to take care of most of the fuel,” Castillo said. “It’s also true that we can get some of the hydrogen from waste we all produce every day.”
***********
So they are saying that the same system can be used to convert nat. gas also… And to see all the flaring being done with those gas wells??? What a waste!
Also… Brouwer has said that he plans on re-fining this system to get a 10x increase of hydrogen with same amount of bio-solid now used! Impressive!
Bob Wallace LoneWolffe Ladson True enough (see my other response), but recovering ANY of that lingering CH4 would be better than just letting it go to the atmosphere, a greenhouse gas twenty times more potent than carbon dioxide! As far as how MUCH is available, that is another question to be calculated.
Bob Wallace Mick Segal I have to wonder, however, are there any measurements on exactly how much methane is produced at landfills and sewage treatment plants? Considering that CH4 is about 20x stronger than CO2 as a greenhouse gas, at least using it will significantly reduce GHG emissions. If we can get some useable H2 fuel out of the deal, all the better. How MUCH H2 fuel, however, I’m not sure.
LoneWolffe Ladson
Just be careful to not overestimate the amount available.
Think of it this way. The amount of methane producing material added to the sewage system and landfill per day per person is not a great deal more than what they throw away and poop. And only a small amount of that total mass converts to methane.
Ladson LoneWolffe I couldn’t agree with you more! Landfill and sewer gas is another great source, eliminating already-existing methane emissions. two birds with one stone!
Mick Segal Bob Wallace Actually Orange is late to the game. There’s been a sewage -> fuel cell system running at UCSD for a while.
Now, do you imagine there is enough methane capturable to fuel even thousands of FCEVs, let alone millions?
It’s like the old biodiesel from french fry oil. Sounds great until you start to do the math.
LoneWolffe Ladson Tnx for the info; BTW, I would be the first to support FCVs if they can get away from fossil fuels.
Bob Wallace Video (Someone took down the video but the article still there) below of what is happening in California at municipal wastewater treatment plants using fuel cell technology to produce 3 value streams of electricity, hydrogen and heat all from a human waste! This is pretty impressive in my opinion for hydro-refueling infrastructure.
“New fuel cell sewage gas station in Orange County, CA may be world’s first”
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8310315
“It is here today and it is deployable today,” said Tom Mutchler of Air Products and Chemicals Inc., a sponsor and developer of the project.
Hydrogen Fuel is not at all expensive especially when their are vast amounts in the country’s Municipal Wastewater Facility’s everywhere! See below what is going on!
Video (Someone took down the video but the article still there) below of what is happening in California at municipal wastewater treatment plants using fuel cell technology to produce 3 value streams of electricity, hydrogen and heat all from a human waste! This is pretty impressive in my opinion for hydro-refueling infrastructure.
“New fuel cell sewage gas station in Orange County, CA may be world’s first”
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8310315
“It is here today and it is deployable today,” said Tom Mutchler of Air Products and Chemicals Inc., a sponsor and developer of the project.
2.8MW fuel cell using biogas now operating; Largest PPA of its kind in North America
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/news-events/news-archive/2012/october/28-mw-fuel-cell-using-biogas-now-operating-largest-ppa-of-its-kind-in-north-america
****************
also…
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/pump-it-up-we-refuel-a-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-hydrogen-filling-stations-are-still-rare-page-3Will Hydrogen Be Cheaper Than Gasoline? Who Knows?The pump we used quoted the price of hydrogen at $5 per kilogram. The actual cost for pump hydrogen in the future is difficult to estimate with any accuracy, though, since the volume and infrastructure aren’t yet mature. Balch cites studies that foresee the price of hydrogen leveling off between $2 and $4 per kilogram, and he points out that a kilogram of H2 typically provides more range than a gallon of gas. Once the price of hydrogen does come down, it should carry a cost per mile that’s similar to or better than that of gasoline. Better yet, once established, the price is not expected to fluctuate with the same volatility as that of gasoline.So although the process of pumping hydrogen into a fuel-cell vehicle is pretty simple (and getting simpler), the process of pumping hydrogen into our infrastructure could be one of the great challenges of our generation. At least we can look forward to keeping our hands clean.The ix35 Fuel Cell is equipped with a 100 kW electric motor, allowing it to reach a maximum speed of 160 km/h (99 mph). Two hydrogen storage tanks, with a total capacity of 5.64 kg, enable the vehicle to travel a total of 594 km (369 miles) on a single charge, and it can reliably start in temperatures as low as -20 degrees Celsius.
Bob Wallace
>>”The https://www.greenoptimistic.com/2014/07/17/hyundai-ix35-fuel-cell-vehicle-gets-80-mpge/ fuel cell vehicle, on the other hand, recently tested as high as 80 MPGe, which rounds out to just 6.3 ¢/mi.”
>An EV charging with 12c/kWh electricity and using 0.3 kWh/mile costs 3.6c/mile. (EVs will likely charge off peak and charge as dispatchable loads which will gain them less expensive rates.)
True, I’d like to find some cost comparisons between FCVs and BEVs, but this was only a comparison between FCVs and HEVs.
>>”Considering that wind-power-generated hydrogen fuel isn’t even the cheapest method,”
>The cheapest source of hydrogen is reformulated natural gas. There’s a couple of significant problems with using NG.
>First, we end up pumping more carbon into our atmosphere and drive climate change faster. The cost of dealing with climate change is going to be massive. Right now southern Florida is having to rework its water and sewage systems in order to deal with salt water intrusion from rising sea levels.
Smart thinking would be to add those costs back into the price of NG H2 rather than think it cheap.
Second, natural gas supplies are limited. Based on 2010 consumption levels we could run out of reasonably priced NG in 20 years. Now that we’re increasing our burn rate (electricity, commercial vehicles, exporting) we are going to hit the limit sooner. Any cost savings by FCEVs could be temporary and short-lived.
Trust me, I am NOT condoning using natural gas reformation as a viable source of hydrogen fuel. True, it’s “cheap” in one way, but sickeningly expensive in another way. NREL’s data says renewable hydrogen fuel, via wind- and solar-power is entirely doable. (Will address that one in a future post, so stay tuned.)
“The https://www.greenoptimistic.com/2014/07/17/hyundai-ix35-fuel-cell-vehicle-gets-80-mpge/ fuel cell vehicle, on the other hand, recently tested as high as 80 MPGe, which rounds out to just 6.3 ¢/mi.”
An EV charging with 12c/kWh electricity and using 0.3 kWh/mile costs 3.6c/mile. (EVs will likely charge off peak and charge as dispatchable loads which will gain them less expensive rates.)
“Considering that wind-power-generated hydrogen fuel isn’t even the cheapest method,”
The cheapest source of hydrogen is reformulated natural gas. There’s a couple of significant problems with using NG.
First, we end up pumping more carbon into our atmosphere and drive climate change faster. The cost of dealing with climate change is going to be massive. Right now southern Florida is having to rework its water and sewage systems in order to deal with salt water intrusion from rising sea levels.
Smart thinking would be to add those costs back into the price of NG H2 rather than think it cheap.
Second, natural gas supplies are limited. Based on 2010 consumption levels we could run out of reasonably priced NG in 20 years. Now that we’re increasing our burn rate (electricity, commercial vehicles, exporting) we are going to hit the limit sooner. Any cost savings by FCEVs could be temporary and short-lived.
Ladson I’m going to tackle that one in a future post, but according to the http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/production_cost_analysis.html , renewable hydrogen fuel is within our grasp. natural gas reformation would be cheaper, but also emissions intensive.
the real question is, how do we make the transition?
The glaring error in the calculations is the assumption Hydrogen is created by green windmills…that’s a PR image creation. Hydrogen is produced by oil companies reforming fossil fuel and then compressing it to greater than 10,000 psi. It is a continuation of control of the fuel market by the oil companies……..” wind-power-generated hydrogen fuel”…..PR bologna!